You would have to conclude theres a problem with the product, not with the people., In the Nightline version, Bagnell says, Firearms are not subject to federal regulation. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. Sep 20, 2021 613 571 Idaho. Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. Later when he was driving he shifted his weight and this caused the trigger to be pushed back further and it went off and shot him and the bullet then also blew a big hole in the floor board of this truck. It was expensive. He quickly too quickly tried to pick up the gun from the floor before anyone could see it, and in his haste, he picked it up with his finger on the trigger and accidentally fired the gun. I bought a P320 and went through the voluntary upgrade. The Milwaukee Police Department reports "multiple unexplained accidental discharges" of the Sig Sauer P320 9mm, a gun all officers are required to carry, making for more than 1,600 firearms. The truth is the absolute WORST semi-autos that Sig, H&K, Walther, Beretta or Glock makes today are more reliable than the best semi-autos made 40 years ago, by far. Instead we see a Sig that is ran by Mr. Cohen of Kimber fame have repeated quality and product development failures. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. Rather, it's because those LEO P320 pistols are seeing much more physical action than ones carried by civilians. The P320 should be scrapped and SIG Sauer USA should redesign a new pistol around the striker firing mechanism instead of just retrofitting a hammer fired pistol (P250). You couldnt ask questions. in 2021," Bagnell said of the overall scope of the concern . D. Sounds like these officers and others are attempting to cover their posteriors. The suit also cites other occurrences of "un-commanded" discharges with the 320 while holstered. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. I call b-s on all these my gun magically went off. That said, I own multiple P320s, but all of them have the manual safety due to personal preference. Then when the gun still wouldnt operate right, field stripped it and cleared the debris, but didnt understand the gun enough to realize it was now super broken. Thats the same. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. Not too long after they sold a pistol to the public and United States military thats not even DROP SAFE?!? (unless theyre SWAT or something). As they should. Hello perpetrators, Lee Paige is clearly the gift that keeps on giving though our buddy Hunter Biden is a close second! I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. https://sofrep.com/news/dod-evaluation-says-armys-new-sig-sauer-p320-service-pistol-riddled-issues/. 3) If the sear fails, there is the drop safety in the way of the striker. Glock's and Sig P320 are all designated as Double-Action-Only fire control mechanisms. Thats SIGs term for a recall. They habitually use their customers as the product testers by selling what are essentially prototypes while quietly implementing rolling revisions. He would have been booted after the first time, but being a cop comes with some special privileges. TTAG talked to SIG Sauer about the P320 suits and the ABC reports. I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. It may be a rotten trigger, but it does highlight the fact it has a much lighter trigger compared to classic semi-autos and revolvers. hate to tell you this but most lawnmowers with the handle bar stop get tied down. Thats fine. In a straight up Glock vs. Sig battle, the United States Marines chose Sig, and that was AFTER watching the P320 perform for four years. Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. Police officers do NOT get a lot of training unless theyre doing it on their own time at their own expense. Being highly trained doesnt eliminate stupidity. The probable reason that some folks are saying that the P320 is unsafe is that there was a lawsuit filed in federal court in July of 2020 (Guay v. Sig Sauer) alleging that the 320 fired "un-commanded" without a trigger pull while in a holster. So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio? That a shirt tail or jacket cinch cord slips into a holster. Fair enough. And thats just my opinion. Note the addition of ominous background music in the second seven-minutes-longer version (there was no music in the Good Morning America version). Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. In 1982 the G17 hit the market and in 1983 they gave 30,000 pistols to the Austrian military at cost. Wow new finger grooves, crazy innovation. Happy with my old S&W revolvers, 3rd Gen S&W pistols,1911s and a slew of P226s. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. He was told to shoot two rounds. What I can say is that article reads like a hit piece on the individuals who may or may not of made mistakes with their firearms from someone who worships at the alter of sig. Theres also an un-named Texas gun shop manager who says a P320 fired as he cleared the weapon, blowing off one of his fingers. Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, resulting in injury and his unit withdrawing the pistol from service. This is the only post fix tale of p320 failure I have heard that is not some form of but it just went off, I didnt do nutthin! And then theres Gunter Walker, a civilian, who says his P320 fired on its ownwhen he placed the weapon down on his nightstand, shooting him through the palm of his left hand.. It has nothing to do with Glock. Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. I love when people call law enforcement officers highly trained. Most dont get more training than what they had in the academy unless they are getting paid time to train, or are going for something speciality such as S.W.A.T. Where is that defect now? In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. Its just that with hundreds of millions of firearms in the hands of more than one-third of the countrys population including a lot of cops some number of negligent discharges will inevitably happen. He said hes a gun owner and a concealed carry permit holder. When a consumer product is likely to be operated in such a way that it causes accidents because it is way too easy to make a serious mistake because of human error when operating it the manufactures are told that the machine must be made safer. Is it? The best take on this subject is by the author himself: this is about slime lawyers looking to build a national narrative and get a few wins in, so they can more easily get the next win and the next one, the next one and so on. Im a Kirk guy, a Shatner Kirk guy. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. I carry one in my front pocket routinely. The one officer in the ABC story had it wrapped in a rag in his gym bag? Kyle . I have no idea. Having it as the ONLY trigger pull the weapon has seems (to me) clearly dangerous. Face it, you paid far too much for a plastic gun. Got a 40 SW P320 SC on my hip now, got one in 9mm within reach, so far neither has decided to trip the sear without my help. Everyone remember the video of the DEA agent shooting himself while explaining that he was highly qualified to carry a gun? First off, no joke on me. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. But SIG Sauer said it has rectified the issue with upgrades, including one made for the U.S. military which court documents, filed as part of one of the lawsuits, show resulted in substantial changes to the weapons internal design. (The defect couldnt be duplicated after the crash.). Sig P320 Accidental Discharge 2021 Perhaps nothing speaks more clearly to the need for a total recall than the fact that in 2021, over four years after Sig Sauer offered its voluntary upgrade, people are still suffering injuries and lawsuits continue to be filed. Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging By Tom Knighton | 11:30 AM on October 30, 2021 AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast Several years ago, there was an issue discovered with the. Dude, your story is THREE years old. Its a novelty, its got issues! The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. Good job! The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. These officers are not gunfighters. Right up front, the use of an ill-fitting/improper-for-the-gun holster instantly negates any idea of an unintended discharge being the fault of the design. Too Many Accidents By hoping Sig gets taken down for the P320, theyre actually setting up their own pet brand to be the next on the chopping block. That a pistol will be carried in a way it shouldnt (say, in a gym bag or a purse). Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. Now when you lose your grip on lawn mowers or snow blowers they will not keep travelling foreword all by themselves. At the risk of sounding superstitious lets review Sigs latest turd pistol. Who function tests their firearm 1) with a round in the chamber, and 2) when its pointed at an extremity? They didnt have to, but did. Two, the plunger may have a propensity to remain partially raised, or staged, instead of returning fully to its secure position, lessening the energy necessary to move it and thus allowing less effort to do so. Legal Penalties. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago. Liberal, Conservative. Sounds like most of these cases were off-body carry. Dont care for them, not my jam. Give me a break. ABC News ran two reports on the topic last week, highlighting one particular cop in Bridge City, Texas who is suing SIG for $15 million. Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. But this time, the sound bites used were different. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer The second, longer version of the ABC story again included comments from Joshua Harrison, the consultant ABC hired to independently assess the P320. I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. She didnt sue, but swore she would never own another Volvo again. One hell of a conspiracy. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. Unless they have to fire their weapon in an on-duty incident most officers only fire their weapons just before and/or at qualifications, which depending on the department are annual or semi-annual. People who had problems have been replacing them with Lightning Strike SS ones. Canadian soldier. The latest of these suits was filed last week in US District Court in Massachusetts. Ive seen similar situations at our Municipal range. The moral of all of this is the reason Sig got the military contract was because they were selling guns at close to cost, they underbid Glock by a significant margin. TTAG talked to Bagnell, who told us that he wants it to be known that he is not anti-gun and doesnt want to see more gun control laws in this country. And on the flip side of the coin is the decades of denial by Remington on the 700 which Ive seen firsthand. And I suspect at end of day this recent P320 one will be identified as a negligent discharge or from weapons from 2017 where owners failed to . No picture for me. Capitol Police Officers Explanation for Shooting and Killing Ashli Babbitt Is Riddled With Problems, The City of Wichita Raked In Almost $200,000 Selling Seized Guns in the Last Five Years, State Judge Issues Order Blocking Enforcement of Illinois Firearms Ban Act Statewide, Federal Judge Grants Injunction Blocking Enforcement of ATFs Frame or Receiver Rule, Illinois Rep. Bob Morgan: Anything Stamped M&P is a Weapon of War, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM, https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/dea-agent-lee-paige-still-wont-go-away/, https://sofrep.com/news/dod-evaluation-says-armys-new-sig-sauer-p320-service-pistol-riddled-issues/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g, https://millsentertainment.smugmug.com/William-Shatner-The-Wrath-of-Khan. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. People who know how to handle guns prudently and safely. Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. You have entered an incorrect email address! If it were the guns, there would be thousands of cases involving citizensbut there arent. This is this same company that couldnt build their own freaking rifles after multiple attempts (Sig SG550 series) when that rifle had been made in Switzerland for years without issue. They didnt see a problem at all and in fact, saw it as an upgrade over Glock. They passed every state and national drop test requirement out there. According to Section 22.05 of the Texas Penal Code, engaging in deadly conduct with a firearm is considered a felony of the third degree. Quite frankly, a sizable number of the LEOs that go there, would benefit from a Gun Safety 101 class. He is acting as a consultant in the Collette suit that was filed last week. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. Sig, take this firearm off the market, and recall. The problem with Sig is with their polymer pistols. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. Lastly, ship-wise I have to go with the TMP-era refit Enterprise, regardless of Captain. No you haters are not smarter than the US military, who tested the P320 far more than your favorite YouTuber ever did. If the gangster greed monger criminal Capitalvanians in the gun industry had their products under the jurisdiction of the consumer safety administration all the newer striker fired guns would never have been allowed on the market unless they had manual safeties and a safe take down system. Heres the version of the report that ran later that night, during ABCs Nightline program . Especially since they farm it out to the lowest bidder. Its the expert who gets caught up in the routine and stops paying attention. ! only reveals ones immature emotional attachment to an inanimate object, which reveals a pretty childish worldview. The claim basically boils down to the notion that in normal, unconcerning operation, a foreign body entered the striker body. Excellent work. In June, Cambridge police Lt. Thomas Ahern filed suit, accusing Sig Sauer of selling a dangerously defective product after his P320 fired on its own while he was in the department's SWAT team van with six other officers. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. First, clearing a loaded firearm with a finger over the muzzle doesnt exhibit even cursory adherence to the Four Rules. Too much MIM in that crap SIG, the old ones were great. Much has been made of Nimoys Spock being the most popular character in TOS, but Id argue that without Shatners over-the-top swagger and brash manner, the balance would be lost. The new Tauruses have a good rep, far better then the P320 or P365. I know off body carry is a recipe for disaster. Upgrades are for things that didnt work right in the first place. Oh, if you another thread reader asking Wheres the Sig/Glock bashing? COPYRIGHT 2021, THETRUTHABOUTGUNS.COM. In 2021 you would think a company would understand MIM metallurgy. After watching a friend get killed by a Remington 700 by another friend and the ensuing fallout 31 years ago I decided that I didnt care if the P320 was fixed, it was getting sold. That took a lot. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? Dont quote the four rules of safety in your article when all the hotness in the gun world is appendix carry pointing something at an extremity and the photos you use showing front slide serrationsputting your hands fingers near the business end of the barrel, because press checks from the front is the way all the cool operator guys do it. They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. Why you and I are arguing over a gun that neither owns or will own, The U.S. manufacturer went a step further in its statement Friday, stating without evidence or attribution, that the timing of the article was intended to undercut its chances in the federal governments upcoming bid to replace all of the handguns in both the military and RCMP. Theyre the only product that is not. Some of the plaintiffs claim the pistol can fire without the trigger even being touched. Aug 25, 2021 pluong91 said: Hello all users that plan on making a P320 Accidental Discharge Threads -We love our P320's and have done the research when these articles and lawsuits came out, we don't need you to tell us, we have done our due diligence. Fundamentally, the bits that the ambulance chaser claims are flawed function exactly the same way as a S&W M&P. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . It alleges that Walter Collette, Jr., a police officer with the Somerville (Mass.) Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. how do I get one for my P320? there is no better. Each incident gives them more blood for their macabre dance, and another tic-mark for their context-free gun violence tally. Glocks biggest problem is they havent innovated since 1985. But were way past the days of major league, internationally known gunmakers turning out complete crap, selling it and the public living with it.